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Topic: making computer - need advice! (Read 511 times)
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Deuce
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making computer - need advice!
« on: June 06, 2004, 06:59:44 PM »
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After finding out that my wonderful year old dell computer cant handle FFXI, and having my laptop cry out in pain everytime it runs the game, I decided it's about time I get a computer that is actually designed for gaming. Of course, seeing as I have minimal knowledge about building computers (and will probably end up begging Azus to come to my house and put it all together anyway), I've run into a few roadblocks as to what I should actually get. So..here's what I've limited it down to:
Motherboard / CPU:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=879262&Sku=MBM-P4I865-2800N&CatId=1235
or
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=770441&Sku=MBM-CK8D-3000&CatId=1181
now if i understand this right, AMD processors are betting for gaming. But seeing as the most intensive game I have is FFXI, I don't know if I really need it or not. Thus the P4 alternative. My question is though, if I do plan on getting newer, more intensive games later on, will the P4 hold up?
COMPUTER CASE:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=541440&Sku=D15-1002
I'm pretty much sure on this one.
POWER SUPPLY:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=599588&Sku=U10-9400%20B2
i was almost tempted to pay another $20 to get the matching black, but no...
ROM DRIVES:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=234667&sku=A451-2122%20BK
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=234685&sku=A451-4200
Pretty much set in stone there.. I dont need a DVD burner.
MEMORY:
2 x 512MB PC2700 DDR RAM...buying it at Best Buys
HARD DRIVE:
Western Digital 120GB 7200 RPM /w 8MB Buffer...Best Buys
PROCESSOR FAN:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=184406&Sku=T925-1062&CatId=1187
The computer case already comes with 3 80mm LED fans..along with this Processor Fan will that keep the system cool enough or will I need more fans?
VIDEO CARD:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=588461&Sku=P450-8503
I don't need a top of the line card..and this one looked good I suppose.
MONITOR:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=615108&sku=J156-1704
This is another thing I'm sure about, because if there is no difference between this monitor and a Dell monitor that is $30 cheaper, screw this one.
Am I missing anything else? Do i need a sound card and some sort of network card as well? I would love to hear all of your opinions as I would like to start ordering parts this week.
Thanks!
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Druz
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2004, 07:22:06 PM »
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My only advice to you is to stop palying ffxi before you realize what a waste it is  and also to wait for the pci express to come out so everything else is 10x cheaper
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Nittany
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2004, 03:02:59 AM »
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No point in getting stuff from Best Buy.
That case and power supply scare me. The power supply mainly. I'd go for one made by someone more reputable like antec, enlight, or yeah something better.
Don't be held into their combos. I've never known anyone who used a soyo before.
All in all, as Draz said, pci-express is going to be coming out sometime soon. So best bet it to hold off.
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Druz
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2004, 03:07:45 AM »
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drUz! 
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2004, 10:35:22 AM »
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The AMD/P4 thing:
The only difference an end user like any of us is EVER going to see is price. You can argue hyperthreading and blah blah blah to end of days, but it just don't matter. If you want to spend twice as much on a CPU, buy a Pentium, that's all there is to it. You won't see a performance difference between brands (AMD vs. Intel), only between speeds in the same model (Athlon XP 2600 vs. Athlon XP 3200).
Not to mention the fact that there isn't much point in getting a 3GHz CPU right now anyway. I've gone over this half a dozen times before, but the big catch is the hard drive speed. Day to day applications aren't designed to minimize disk usage, and games are no exception (when it comes to loading at least), which makes 90% of all the applications you're ever going to use something we call "I/O bound." it means that the (s)lowest common denominator in the entire "speed" of a computer system is the hard drive. No matter how fast the rest of it is, you will ALWAYS be waiting on the HD to supply data for the CPU to chew on. It's like having an assembly line with a machine that can wiggle 30 fangles a minute, but having a conveyor belt feeding it that can only supply 4 fangles a minute. The vast majority of the machine's time is going to be spent waiting.
Moral of that story: don't waste your money on a top-of-the-line CPU. 2GHz is going to be more than enough.
Motherboard:
This one is a bit more of a personal taste thing, but if you go with AMD then I can highly recommend the Gigabyte GA-7N400-L. This board is cheap, comes with lots of stuff on-board, and most importantly, supports dual channel DDR, which is going to give your system the biggest improvement in "speed" out of anything you can do. If you're building the computer COMPLETELY from the ground up (meaning a new HD too), consider switching to SATA. That's going to help relieve the hard drive bottleneck a good bit.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2004, 10:39:13 AM »
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Also, this thing is gonna be pretty noisy. I doubt you will need even 3 fans.
The power supply is probably a bit much too. You could probably go with a 300 unless you're going to be loading TONS of extra drives in there. In fact, the power supply in my Shuttle is only 220, but then it's a little more tightly designed. Also, if you're not paying for electricity then it doesn't matter, but if you are (or will be soon) keep in mind that a 400 power supply is gonna put a dent in the bill.
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[Guardian] Alkali
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2004, 10:37:06 AM »
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Ok... When I build PC's (Which I regularly do), I am always looking to build up to budget, the best quality computer I can. Now this isnt just about speed, this is about reliability, compatibility, waranty coverage, etc.
Here follows my list (and reasons) of components I think you should be contemplating: (all from TigerDirect)
____________________________________________
Diablo Tek Black Demon ATX Mid-Tower Case with Front USB Ports
$49.99
No need to change this, one case is generally as good as another
Soyo P4I 865PE Plus Socket 478 Motherboard with Intel Pentium 4 2.8GHz 800FSB Processor
$231.99
Seems like a good deal - Processor will last you for literally YEARS with this spec
Vantec Aeroflow CPU Cooler with TMD Fan supports up to Intel Pentium 4 3.06 Ghz
$25.99
Forget that other cooler, you want a reliable, good make for the most important cooling element - and that is Vantec, unless you go for Swiftech or ThermalRight, but they are exteme cooling and cost lots of $$$$
Vantec 420Watt Stealth Aluminum Power Supply with 3 Cooling Fans
$79.99
DEFINATELY, definately, go for a well-made, solid, reliable Power Supply. A bad one can cause all sorts of problems, crashes, burnouts etc. Vantec make good cupplies, I have the 520Watt version, its very solid. Vantec are the only good PSU make at TigerDirect.
TDK CD Burner / 52x24x48x CD-RW / Black / Nero Software
$59.99
I would'nt touch an unknown brand with a bargepole, so definately go TDK or Sony (but TDK has black at TigerDirect, so go for this).
MSI 16x DVD-ROM Drive / Black
$29.99
Ditto, go for known make, ie. MSI
((RAM/HDD already chosen))
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$477.94 without GFX and Monitor, ie. $322 left.
NEC FE771SB-BK 17" 0.25mm Black AG Flat CRT Monitor
$159.87
One thing you will LOVE if you follow this spec is how much this monitor was worth the money. It may be expensive, but short of the (now discontinued) 17" Sony CRTs, it is the best out there. This will be the interface between the computer and you, so I always folow the philosophy that a computer is only going to be confortably viewing using a top notch Monitor
Sapphire Radeon 9600XT Video Card / 128MB DDR / AGP 8X / TV Out & DVI / Lite Version
$159.99
Another very good quality component, this will ENSURE your enjoyment of not only FFXI, but all subsequent games follow this. Half-Life 2 included.
_____________
$797.80 + the ram & HDD already chosen.
I know this may be looked at being expensive listing, but all the components are quality, and stable & reliable. If you want lower spec stuff, I can do another list, and still try and maintain the quality components.
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| « Last Edit: June 10, 2004, 10:52:11 AM by [Guardian] Alkali » |
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[Guardian] Alkali
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2004, 10:57:54 AM »
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The power supply is probably a bit much too. You could probably go with a 300 unless you're going to be loading TONS of extra drives in there. In fact, the power supply in my Shuttle is only 220, but then it's a little more tightly designed. Also, if you're not paying for electricity then it doesn't matter, but if you are (or will be soon) keep in mind that a 400 power supply is gonna put a dent in the bill.
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Erm, Porter, I think I should say at this point that power supplies dont just suck up all the power they are rated for - they only draw what is required from the power socket....
If this wasnt the case, my Amplifier in my living room would be astonomically expensive as its maximum rating is 1800Watts - and I run it nearly 10 hours per day. It actually only uses about 300watts during normal operation, and it only draws more when I use DlbyDigital, DTS, 5.1 channel - where is has to deliver power to the speakers, therefore drawing lots more power from the power supply...
Ergo... Even my 520Watt PSU will never reach capacity (in terms of full drawing current from the wall) - and it wont probably approach more than 450 watts in its whole lifetime... (and I've got 7 drives and 11 fans  )
The main reason why having a larger power supply is a good idea is to ensure that it is able to keep all your rails at a constant voltage level no matter what is drawing from your PSU (even during a cold start - where its most stressed).
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| « Last Edit: June 10, 2004, 11:00:01 AM by [Guardian] Alkali » |
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2004, 01:16:20 PM »
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Motherboard:
This one is a bit more of a personal taste thing, but if you go with AMD then I can highly recommend the Gigabyte GA-7N400-L. This board is cheap, comes with lots of stuff on-board, and most importantly, supports dual channel DDR, which is going to give your system the biggest improvement in "speed" out of anything you can do. If you're building the computer COMPLETELY from the ground up (meaning a new HD too), consider switching to SATA. That's going to help relieve the hard drive bottleneck a good bit.
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If there is one thing I am super happy about Porter helping me with when I bought my machine it is this mother board. I've now talked three other friends into this motherboard, and I can tell you not one of them has a complaint about it. This thing has built in lan, usb2.0, can use your harddrive (assuming it is EIDE), and like porter said that Dual Channel ram is UBER. Plus you'll spend $75 on it or so if you go through mwave.com. So even looking at your other motherboard, you could still buy a huge 3.0+ GHz processor and still probably have money to spare. Again, if you go through mwave.com, get a retail Athlon XP, it comes with a AMD approved fan/cooling system, so you don't have to worry about that. I'd say you could save an easy $200 with that board, and CPU combo alone, and like porter says, if you can tell a difference, I'll be freaking impressed.
Tenshi
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[Guardian] Alkali
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2004, 04:18:57 PM »
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Difficulty is he is limited severely by what TogerDirect choose to sell. The only good mobo manufacturer on that site is Soyo... unless I missed the others like Gigabyte, MSI, Tyan, and the DFI LanParty boards...
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Nittany
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2004, 01:17:38 AM »
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Paying money for an Aluminum heatsink...? Thermalright is all I have to say.
Last for years? It will last for years, but it isn't going to do everything you want it to, so maybe there is better price perfomance ratio processor out there? Yeah, and it isn't manufactured by Intel.
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2004, 05:56:43 AM »
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ThermalRight's heatsinks are the best out there (SP-94 for Intel CPUs, and SP-97 for AMD's), and the Swiftech's are 2nd best, but both of these are all about extreme cooling, and I dont think he needs them...
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Fotty
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2004, 01:44:21 PM »
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porter I have a 3.0HT p4 at home and a 2.4HT here at work and it kills an AMD
windows XP as well as many other MS apps support HT.
So when your OS supports it, it makes everything faster. I get no slow down at all no matter how much I am doing because XP alternates the threads to each half of the processor. It thinks there are 2.
also I spent 500 bucks on this work PC.. not unreasonable if u ask me
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« Last Edit: June 11, 2004, 01:45:31 PM by Fotty » |
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Nittany
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2004, 01:59:59 PM »
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More work per clock cycle = better for games = amd. If you want to run applications faster then intel is built better for that. NTM, amd isn't killed by anyone and they cost so much less. You can look at bench marks and it will be like with this processor you get an extra 1.3 fps over the competition!!! OMG, it is so much better. It can encode mp3's a whole milisecond over the competition, what a time saver!
This kid that biggums lans with built a 3.0 HT with a gig of 400mhz ddr, hard drive with 8mb cache, 9800 pro, and so on. Honestly, I can't tell a difference between that and biggums computer when playing games on it. Biggums has posted his specs before but it is xp 2600, a gig of 333 mhz ddr, his hard drive is whack, and a geforce 4 4200 Ti.
If he uses a pentium, he isn't going to need a copper heatsink, but if he goes amd, then he might. With the money he can save with amd he can but all sorts of extreme parts. Like extreme rounded ide cables.
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2004, 03:40:23 PM »
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| This kid that biggums lans with built a 3.0 HT with a gig of 400mhz ddr, hard drive with 8mb cache, 9800 pro, and so on. Honestly, I can't tell a difference between that and biggums computer when playing games on it. Biggums has posted his specs before but it is xp 2600, a gig of 333 mhz ddr, his hard drive is whack, and a geforce 4 4200 Ti. |
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Big point here is that without any noticeable difference in performance, biggums easily spent $100 less on his machine just by using AMD instead of Intel. You can do whatever you want, but I'll save the 100 bucks, thanks. 
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Fotty
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2004, 04:22:03 PM »
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when you get high end like that doesn't matter AMD or intel you will get the same results when playing a game like counter strike, and if thats all you want to do then by all means cheaper is better... but when you get to doing many things at once that is where you see the difference. ripping a full DVD movie using software written for the P4 instruction set takes half the time it would on AMD, and I can do that WHILE playing counter strike and still get no slow down... could probably be doing 5 other resouce intensive things as well
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Nittany
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2004, 11:03:44 AM »
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Well, there is CS and all the half-life mods. Warcraft 3 as well and medal of honor. I mean, that basically tells you how it will run off all the currect big engines. Fact of the matter is, there is no noticeable difference. If there actually was one, you wouldn't need benchmarks.
If you want pentium, go ahead. I've had two over the years, but when it came to building my own, I went amd because I could save so much. People used to criticize amd saying that they ran way too hot. Well, once that didn't happen anymore and they have the fastest processor... Intel fanboys talk about how they can do 10000 things at once with hyper threading. Regardless of how the hard drive is the system bottleneck whenever it is needed.
Deuce, do you plan on ripping dvd's while doing five other things on your computer?
If so, spend extra hundreds and get an athlon fx or p4 3 ghz HT.
Then in two years when your in the same position you are now with your computer, which may not even be because of your processor being to slow but other components, you can spend tons more money on a new system again.
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2004, 03:03:49 PM »
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Hi all,
I recently built up a new computer - Here's my advice:
1) As mentioned before, AMD vs. Intel is all about price. I decided to go with Intel this time, and choose a 2.8Ghz HT processor, as it seems to be right in the sweet spot of processor pricing these days.
2) If you go Intel, then consider the ASUS P4P800-E motherboard. ASUS is very reliable, and it has all the goodies onboard plus one major advantage - SATA RAID...
3) ... which allows you to install two speedy SATA drives and configure them as Stripe-0. This, in effect, provides you a performance enhancement by reading and writing data to two drives simultaneously. I went with 2 Hitachi 160Gb 7200RPM/8Mb cache drives - which now acts as one huge 305Gb (formatted) drive. To cut down on cost, you could buy 2 Hitachi 80Gb Drives (at $69 per) and still have ~150Gb of speedy I/O. Or, you could just skip this whole step and go with your drive choice as-is.
( My caveat: I work for Hitachi, so obviously, I think Hitachi drives are great. You should, too. Check us out at http://www.hitachigst.com  )
4) A tip, if you choose an Intel HT processor - buy a MoBo that supports 800Mhz FSB and DDR400 Memory that you can install in pairs to support the HT processor. Remember, if you buy HT, buy fast memory in pairs... 2 sticks of 256Mb SRAM versus 1 512Mb stick, for example.
5) Finally, consider http://www.mwave.com - they have always been fast and reliable for me and their prices and selection are excellent.
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PanchoDaz
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2004, 05:00:39 PM »
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my only general thinking with computers is don't buy it if you dont need it. I see a lot of people will buy the latest graphics card and latest processor and they cost a fortune.
I always end up buying at least a couple of "steps" back down the ladder eg just now I got a P4 2.8GHz and Radeon 9600XT. I actually had quite a lot of money to spend on this build so i think i built a pretty powerfull computer - without getting top of the range stuff.
My thinking is this:
Now my 2.8GHz is easily good enough for what i want to do.
3.2GHz would be better but is (guessing cos i cant be bothered to check) twice as expensive.
In say 12-14 months i may begin to notice the 2.8 is getting slow and may want an upgrade. Now had I bought a 3.2 would i be much better off at this stage? I doubt it because by then the technology will be say 4.5GHz and the 0.4MHz difference is only a very small percentage of this.
I don't think i made my point too well but what I'm trying to say is that buying the latest technology doesn't really give u any extra future proofing - maybe only a month or so between 2.8 and 3.2 in terms of a processor.
Its hard to recommend a computer spec to someone because it really depends what you want to do and how much you want to spend.
For example i had the money so i thought I would try the P4 with HT - and i have to say im impressed. But I'm sure i would have been impressed with an AMD as well and i would have saved money.
Its all about how tight a budget you are on.
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2004, 05:30:41 PM »
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All you need is a matchbox and two bits of wire - enough processing power to run the essential Fifa International Soccer
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joey
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2004, 07:52:56 PM »
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I have lost one of my fifa international soccer discs 
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Surgeon General
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2004, 10:26:22 PM »
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I have lost one of my fifa international soccer discs
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that's why it should be played on a cartridge based system
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2004, 11:04:05 AM »
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man I used to love playing fifa soccer, me and a buddy would get some beers and a pizza and play it all night.
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2004, 11:22:33 AM »
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Deuce, if your planning on gaming, just get a XP2800+ (or something) with 333Mhz system bus. This should be plunty of CPU power for you. I'd recommend one stick of 512 memory (easy as hell to upgrade later).
As for if you want RAID, nearly any manufacturer gives at least one system board with RAID-0 built in. Mine has RAID-0/1 for my AMD 64. Actually, it has Primary IDE, Secondary IDE, Floppy, RAID IDE, SATA Primary, SATA Secondary, SATA RAID. Now hows that for compatibility?
If your looking for a gaming PC, look in the $500 before video card range. You should be able to build a good PC for cheap right now (Minus video card and monitor). Now if you want to pay more, by all means go for it. But if you spend the 500 instead of 1000, you should be able to spend the rest of the money upgrading the system board, CPU, RAM and video card next year.
I didn't bother looking at what you had there, but I'm sure most of it is good stuff. My only question would be is it in your price range. If it is, great. If this will break your bank account, I might suggest knocking it down a bit, so you have money for other things, like games, booze, drugs, gaming devices, bus fare, women, fireworks, or even movies.
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2004, 01:13:27 PM »
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man I used to love playing fifa soccer, me and a buddy would get some beers and a pizza and play it all night.
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We spent all our time getting carded and then running away from the ref...
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Deuce
CSR Super Ultra Mega Nerd
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2004, 06:18:26 PM »
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AMD Athlon XP2500+ Processor 333 FSB Barton Core
Soyo KT600 Dragon Plus V1.0 Socket A Motherboard
Artec 16x DVD-ROM Drive Black OEM
WD Caviar SE 200GB EIDE HD 7200/8MB/ATA-100
TDK 52x24x48x Internal EIDE CDRW
Ultra 512MB PC3200 DDR 400MHz
Vantec Aeroflow CPU Cooler with TMD Fan
Vantec 420W Stealth Aluminum Power Supply, 3 Fans
Sapphire Radeon 9600XT 128MB 8X AGP w/ V & DVI
Diablo Black Demon ATX Case
NEC FE771SB-BK 17" 0.25mm AG Flat Blk CRT Monitor
going to upgrade the processor to 3200+ once the price goes down, and i'll add another 512 ram in there once i have money again. i also need speakers as the ones in the pictures are ones i got free from school a few years ago ^^
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Surgeon General
CSR 80's Metal Master
Admin Team
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2004, 07:30:55 PM »
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FFXI looks good on that. 
Instead of speakers go headphones. Cheap and good.
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Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love!
Source blows.
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Porter
[Wumpa]
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2004, 09:19:40 PM »
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Hey, that's my keyboard!
Don't install the drivers for it-- it made my system crash like crazy. I have to do without the volume controls and such.
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[Wumpa] Porter
--Silent, professional, lethal... sometimes.
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Yuna
[Wumpa]
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2004, 10:16:17 PM »
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Hey! That's my mouse! You can install the drivers though, they work just fine
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f.k.a. [Wumpa] Wannabe, [Guardian] Yuna
n.k.a. [Wumpa] Yuna
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Nubbinator
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2004, 11:35:25 AM »
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Hey! Thats my speakers!
Or my old ones. They work good for 2 speaker set from the 90's. Honestly though, I updated to 5.1 channel set, its good until you try to play CS with a 2 speaker headset and find out their is no back sound. Embaressing when you get knifed often and nobody believes you have no sound from behind you.
Oh.. and I'm sure you don't care about the volume on the keyboard cuz the volume on the speakers are still within reach.
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-=BA=- Through and through.
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biggums
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Re:making computer - need advice!
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2004, 09:44:42 PM »
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deuce i don't know how old this is or if you are done, but i have a msi kt4v k7 mainboard, that i'm returning for a brandnew one. And so i'll have an extra motherboard that i'm not using that i'd see to ya for like 40 50 bucks. That is if msi ever emails me back about it.... it's a very good motherboard i think.
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[IMG]http://www.uvm.edu/~jcameron/owned/owned.jpg
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