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Topic: Leaks and how to fix (Read 162 times)
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MysteryMachine
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Leaks and how to fix
« on: July 18, 2003, 03:51:56 PM »
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I had a strange leak in my map that I couldn't pin down, so I did some research and found this in the worldcraft help section :
There are a number of ways to deal with leaks. The first way you should check is by loading the pointfile. Make sure that mapname.pts is being copied into the valve\maps folder along with the compile map (you'll have to move it manually otherwise). The .pts file contains a set of coordinates that form a line of dots that should lead you to the leak. To load the pointfile in the game, bring down the console and type pointfile.
It quickly pinned down the leak and I was able to fix it. I had to change the CS command with "hl -particles 10000" (or a higher number) also stated in the manual and it pointed the leak. Definatly worth checking out for new mappers (like me)
It can be found by going to help, index, type in VIS and select "How do I fix leaks in my level?"
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Deuce
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2003, 03:55:39 PM »
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Quark, the program i use, will not let you create the map if there are leaks in the level...which is sorta cool
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Grounded
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2003, 03:55:50 PM »
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The pointfile can be useful although sometimes it's more confusing than it's worth. Definitely a better option than surrounding the entire map with a giant box...
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StealthMode
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2003, 11:25:06 PM »
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Yeah Worldcraft aka Hammer wont let you compile the map if you have leaks, it will stop during compile and produce an error file with the complete info of what points have the leaks. Most common leak is a hull leak btw. I am trying to figure out how to environment_sky a two story building (technicly it doesnt need the sky box, but I gotta use it anyway to make it properly).
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MysteryMachine
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2003, 12:31:14 AM »
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Yeah Worldcraft aka Hammer wont let you compile the map if you have leaks, it will stop during compile and produce an error file with the complete info of what points have the leaks. Most common leak is a hull leak btw. I am trying to figure out how to environment_sky a two story building (technicly it doesnt need the sky box, but I gotta use it anyway to make it properly).
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Which part of making the environment_sky are you trying to figure out? Is it the sky part itself or what?
With Worldcraft, it will compile with some leaks. At least it did with mine. I don't know the specifics of it though.
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StealthMode
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2003, 02:08:10 PM »
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Odd I never got mine to compile fully when I got leaks, it would stop at the end of the process where leaks were found.
The sky thing is more of a problem of the house is solid walls on all 6 sides, so I cant brush the walls with a sky environment, I am thinking I am just gonna have to do a carved box around the house and label it the environment_sky.
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MysteryMachine
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2003, 05:01:26 PM »
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Alright. Heres what you can do. I'm assuming the sky is for the windows. Just make unbreakable glass for the windows, then put a brush, with "sky" as the texture, flat against the window on the outside. If you are going to make an outside to it later, just delete the sky brushes and make a larger outside.
Or I might not know what your really trying to do 
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slightcrazed
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2003, 08:12:57 AM »
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Anyone else use the 'big box' method to find leaks? All you need to do is run the BSP compile and cover half of your map with a large non-hollow box. If the box covers the leak than a BSP will compile. Then you can use subsequently smaller and smaller boxes to try to pinpoint where the leak is. That is the method that I use if the pointfile doesn't help. Just a thought.
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Deuce
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2003, 01:53:22 AM »
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| There are a number of ways to deal with leaks. The first way you should check is by loading the pointfile. Make sure that mapname.pts is being copied into the valve\maps folder along with the compile map (you'll have to move it manually otherwise). The .pts file contains a set of coordinates that form a line of dots that should lead you to the leak. To load the pointfile in the game, bring down the console and type pointfile. |
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i have spent the past 2 hours trying to find a leak in map. i've tried all methods and i cant figure it out.
any mapper out there want to give my map a shot and see if you can find the leak?
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2003, 05:37:02 AM »
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Depends how big the file is! Upload it somewhere and I'll have a look.
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Deuce
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2003, 04:54:32 PM »
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HAHAHAH!!! I FOUND IT!!
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Primer
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2003, 09:30:23 PM »
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Yay, I wanna see this map of yours deuce....as long as it doesn't rape my FPS like joust 
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Deuce
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2003, 01:02:14 AM »
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this current one doesnt kill fps
. . .
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yet.
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2003, 05:54:56 AM »
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You could save a ton of polys in joust if you scaled up the water texture.
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2003, 10:00:46 AM »
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joust killed my FPS before the water was even in. My (naive and untrained) conclusion was that it was the transparent cars. Any time I couldn't see them my FPS was back up to it's usual 90+. It still doesn't drop below 25 though, which I would consider still playable.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Primer
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2003, 10:57:37 AM »
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| ...My (naive and untrained) conclusion was that it was the transparent cars... |
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I figured that also....I really don't understand anything about this stuff though so whatever, lol. I get this low FPS thing on playground aswell, that one really baffles me, since it's all just wood and the ground that I see at any given time. I guess there's probably more to it then that but it just seems wierd.
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Deuce
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2003, 12:05:46 PM »
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usually (or at least what i have determined) the more objects you see in your view, the lower the fps, and the higher the r_speeds are.)
| You could save a ton of polys in joust if you scaled up the water texture. |
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scale a what now?
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slightcrazed
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2003, 12:52:38 PM »
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What is really important is the w_poly number of your r_speeds, which stands for the number of world polygons (anything that is not a model, so players, weapons, etc.... don't count as part of your w_poly) on the screen at any given time. The half-life engine splits every face into triangles, and each triangle counts as one poly. So a 6 sided box actually counts as 12 polygon, because each square is cut into 2 triangles. You can easily see this by putting yourself in developer mode and invoking gl_wireframe 2 while playtesting your map (can't be done during an on-ine game). You will see how the map splits up the faces of objects, and this will help you limit w_poly. 600 w_poly is preferable, 800 is OK, 1000 is just about max. This is not a hardware limitation, its a rendering limitation. You don't know how many times I have argued with newbie mappers about this. They think that just because they have a 3 gig system with a geforce FX that the w_poly limitation doesn't apply to them. You have to understand that the engine that half-life is largely based on is almost 7 years old now (Quake 1) and that it simply was never designed to render more than 1000 w_poly. Most of today's newer game engines use polygon scaling and more advanced algorhythms to allow for upwards of 10,000 poly's to be drawn, taking better advantage of the available hardware. Unfortunately, we will have to wait until the next incarnation of CS and the half-life engine before we can hope to be saddled with these limitations.
slight
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Deuce
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2003, 02:06:47 PM »
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well, i think the highest i got joust was at 900 wpoly..but i would have to check again
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slightcrazed
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2003, 03:25:27 PM »
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In this case MM is right, the water is playing a big part in frame rate reduction as well. Joust is right about 900 w_poly, but the wave animation is very CPU intensive, and that seems to be the main culprit.
This is fy_joust with gl_wireframe 2 turned on.
Notice how each patch of water is broken down into smaller patches so that the wave animation can be done. Either scale up the water, or think about replacing it with something like a spike pit or bottomless hole or something..
Here is another shot. The r_speeds are really getting up there in this shot.
Other than that the map looks fine.  By the way, its kind of an interesting twist on the whole CS map thing... where did you come up with it?
slight
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Deuce
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2003, 03:31:49 PM »
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since we are on the subject of wpolys...
i'm having issues lowering the ammount of wpolys i have in this certain area of my map.
notice how the logs are so high in polys (431)? and the ground for that matter..not to mention, there is going to be a big water entity there too.
any suggestions on how to fix this problem? since this map is based in a forest..i want there to be trees..and if the wpoly is this high (not to mention an already starting to get low fps)..it will be a rather blah map.
SLIGHT- what exactly do you mean by scaling up the water? (still a map making newb >_<). i can get rid of waveheight and make it still water..would that help?
i dont remember where i got the idea..but at first it started off with having a massive ship on each side where 1 would drive and others would fight.
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Deuce
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2003, 03:33:46 PM »
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heh..with so many new suggestions and fixings..i sense a joust2k coming out soon
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2003, 03:39:19 PM »
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"In this case MM is right, the water is playing a big part in frame rate reduction as well."
Wasn't that me?
Deuce - the pic you just posted isn't working. As for the water - I'm not sure how things work in Quark but in WC you use the Texture Application tool. It allows you to offest the texture on either axis and also to scale the texture on each axis - then you just 'paint' the texture onto the surface. Slight have you used Quark?
Another reason it might be a bit laggy is because once everyone has hopped onto their little platforms and driven out of the start point, everyone can see everyone else.
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Deuce
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2003, 03:56:33 PM »
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stupid geocities. just copy the shortcut into the address bar >_<
does that mean like insteading of having the texture repeat itself over and over, it stretches it on top of the entire object?
EDIT : i hate stupid free picture hosting. and i hate stupid adelphia for not allowing any sign ups for web hosting
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| « Last Edit: August 03, 2003, 04:00:48 PM by Deuce » |
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slightcrazed
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2003, 04:45:16 PM »
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Kind of. What texture scaling allows you to do is to reduce the number of w_polys on screen by increasing the area that a texture can cover. By default, the engine splits faces of an object on the texture boundaries (its actually more complex than this, but I don't want to spend an hour explaning it). So a wall that has 12 patches (each repitition of a texture is called a patch) vertically and 12 horizontially will have 144 patches covering the wall (12x12). By scaling the texture up 2x, you now have only 6 patches on each side, for only 36 total (6x6). Big difference in w_polys, and hence, better FPS.
As for w_poly reduction methods, texture scaling is one of many. The biggest obstacle for many new mappers is that they want to make every little detail out of a brush. This is simply not possible, and is why many first time maps are unplayable because the w_poly is too high. Details should be incorporated into textures if at all possible. Some other things to remember is to go easy on things like cylinders. a 12 sided cylinder (or tree for that matter) will not look all that much better than an 8 sided one, so why not just use an 8 sided one and save the w_poly count. Also, world brushes that intersect other world brushes will cause splits to form. Example, if you have an 8 sided cylinder (tree) made out of a world brush, and it intersects with the ground, than the HL engine will split the ground into many more patches than is needed. This is where gl_wireframe 2 comes in. It lets you see where these splits occur. So how do you counteract this? Make the brush a func_wall instead. Brush based enteties like the func_wall do not split the face of the object that they touch. Take a look at de_icbm for example. In the main bomb site will the glass ceiling, there are many pipes that touch the wall, but because the pipes are func_wall they do not split the surface that they hit, and therefore save on w_poly. Also notice that I used 8 sided cylinders instead of 10 or 12 to save w_poly as well.
R_speed reduction and w_poly count can get pretty in-depth, but there are alot of articles and tutorials out there on how to best manage them.
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Primer
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2003, 10:35:09 PM »
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heh..with so many new suggestions and fixings..i sense a joust2k coming out soon
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yay. with better FPS?
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Deuce
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2003, 10:55:43 PM »
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primer..if you want to gather a list of suggestions, and can figure out how to lower fps..i will gladly make a joust2k for you.
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Re:Leaks and how to fix
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2003, 04:49:13 AM »
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I think slight has covered just about everything I was going to. The only other thing is that from your screenshot it seems like quite a wide-open area - something HL is not particularly good at. Polygons are determined to be 'visible' to the player not by direct line of sight and so depending on your position you can 'see' round corners without actually seeing round them if you get me. In a wide open area you tend to 'see' just about everything and so your speeds will undoubtedly be higher.
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