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Ryo-Ohki
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OSX workstation
« on: June 06, 2006, 05:07:03 AM »
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Greetings all from the other side of the pond. Hisashiburi desu ne. So I have a pondering for all you Linux / OSX fans. I just got a new job as an applications developer for a small company. Their development team is Linux based. They prefer to have a unified development environment for all programmers. For example everyone will use an IBM workstation that runs Suse. The standard operating enviornment is Apache 2, MySQL5, PHP5. They use remote CVS repository and SSH. A fairly standard setup. Their IDE is Quanta Plus.
So heres the question, being a Mac user I would prefer an OSX work station. How would / should one go about making a case for this? Let me mention up front that they are willing to hear my thoughts on this so I am not going up against a wall. Any thoughts or ramblings would be greatly appriciated.
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| « Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 05:09:39 AM by Ryo-Ohki » |
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Terraji
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2006, 02:58:19 PM »
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Hey Ryo,
Congrats on the new job!
All those applications are good to go in OS X, however I would strongly recomend against such a setup.
First, Quanta would have to run under X11. While having X11 built in is a killer feature, I wouldn't want to have to be working in it full time. It is just too slow and clunky, and it is missing the native feel which largely defeats the purpose.
Second, for a development machine you wouldnt want anything other than a PowerMac and those won't be intel-based for a few months. For about half the cost of a G5, you could get an extremely good dual-core Linux machine that would perform better and last longer.
Third, administrating the machine could be an issue. If you have full adminstrator access and you can handle maintaining the packages yourself, you are set, but if somebody else is doing it, it would be a huge burden on them to manage both Linux and OS X profiles.
Fourth, I know from experience developing web apps cross platform between Windows and Linux, issue arise which can be huge headaches. For example the MySQL configuration could be different on the platform since it has to utilize the OS's facilities for optimal communication (at least when your database is on localhost). Also, if you ever need to link in precompiled binaries for cryptography, you are going to run into trouble.
In general, it is better altruistic practice to be developing on the same platform as you are deploying on. You would probably be better off just biting your tounge and getting used to the Linux. IMHO, it is even better for development than anything else since it forces you to get down and dirty with the fundamentals.
Being pegged as an Apple fanboy as a first impression probably wouln't be the best either. There is nothing stopping you from having a mac notebook on the desk next to you for your reference, email, media, etc. needs. It works pretty good for me.
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Porter
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2006, 02:58:55 PM »
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First off, congrats on the new job! 
Well, my first inclination is to say there's no practical difference between an IBM running Suse and a Mac running OS X given the tools you're working with (something akin to being told you need to drive to a certain place, not not being told what brand of car you need to use to get there), but that's kind of a non-argument.
I think the thing that's gonna hold you up is that Quanta is a KDE app. There would be nothing stopping you from loading KDE and Quanta into Apple's X11, but why bother when an IBM/Suse box can do the same thing natively? Now if there was a Mac port of Quanta, you'd have some darned strong bargaining power, but unless that is the case I think there isn't enough leverage to justify a Mac.
Now, there are loads of people that don't need an IDE like Quanta to write web applications, so there's a chance you could get away with using a simple text editor and the command line for CVS and SSH, etc. However, this approach is probably going to be too far of a stretch for your employers if they're trying to keep everyone in the same development environment.
I can't think of any other great arguments to use at the moment. Where's Slight or Terraji? I'm sure they'd have something to say on this topic.
EDIT:: lol! Terraji posted as I was typing my own response!
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| « Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 03:00:09 PM by Porter » |
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Porter
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2006, 03:31:33 PM »
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| Being pegged as an Apple fanboy as a first impression probably wouln't be the best either. |
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In my experience, I've always used "being pegged as an Apple fanboy" as a positive thing. Most people I've encountered very quickly learn that they're dealing with a unique, creative individual when the person in question uses a Mac. And to boot, people who already are aware of that stereotype instantly give you credit for such.
The biggest problem Mac users have always faced is the people who can't explain why they prefer Macs. They're the ones that make all Mac users look like simpletons. That's not the case for me however, and not only am I'm plenty confident in my decision, but I have a fair stockpile of response for people asking about my choice. After talking to me, most people usually have a much more enlightened idea of what it means to choose the type of computer you use, whether it be a Mac or a PC.
Of course, I'm typing this on a Windows box, since that is what gets the job done the fastest when I'm at work, and that's the real distinction to make for Ryo as well. Could you really work faster on a Mac with just a text editor than in the same environment everyone else in the company is using? Sure there's a learning curve there, but I think the eventual benefit of working in a unified environment will quickly outweigh that.
That said, in that situation I'd be a little sad about not being able to use a Mac myself.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Ryo-Ohki
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2006, 07:12:23 PM »
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Hi all. Thanks for the great input. I guess I'm a little torn. On the one hand all I need to develope is BBedit and the terminal. BBedit has built in CVS over SSH support and the terminal does everything else. SQL admin is done at the terminal and Interarchy handles FTP now that they fully support UTF-8. So for me any OSX machine would do just fine.
Now as for support? I think this is really a none issue. Aside from the physical hardware breaking I can handle any software / network issue that arises. If need be I can compile my own souce to mirror their SOE. I've yet to experience, touch wood, any OSX / Linux MySQL issues though I must admit to some crypto annoyances but those could be looked out for.
Having said that I am not completely against using a Linux box. For me OSX just feels better as a work station. Maybe its because I have always setup Linux / FreeBSD for server use, never as a workstation.
Continues to ponder . . .
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Ryo-Ohki
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2006, 07:16:35 PM »
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Hi Terraji, I think they might have gotten the hint that I was a mac fan before they hired me. I showed up to a skills assesssment project code review with my powerbook . . . 
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| « Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 07:17:49 PM by Ryo-Ohki » |
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Ryo-Ohki
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2006, 07:30:31 PM »
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Hi. Okay well that's another question. Why would I need a Powermac for server side web development? Pro's / Con's? Would not a 20 inch iMac do just fine?
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Terraji
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2006, 12:17:37 PM »
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Pros:
Slightly cheaper than powermac
Cool looking
Extremely quiet
Cons:
Mobile processor
Less reliable (sideways optical drive, need to perform surgery to swap hard-drive)
Sub-optimal dual-screen potential, thinking ergonomically.
Limited to 2gb of very expensive ram
Still more expensive than an equivalent built-for-Linux workstation.
Not upgradable.
If you are a professional, it is my belief that you should have the right tool for the job. iMacs are made for consumers who want a nice all-in one machine. It would be an adequate subsititute, but still, there are tradeoffs involved like anything.
I really don't get what advantages the platform would provide over Linux. Seems like more headaches than it is worth. Personally, I work much better in Linux when it comes to programming beacause the interface is so customizable. Macs are more for creative work because of the great sofware available, and if you are not going to be taking advantage of that aspect, I dont see the point of the headaches.
There is a difference between being an apple fan and being a zealot refusing to work with anything else. Not that I am trying to insult, but the social impact of being the lone mac guy in a sea of Linux guys should be considered. Especially if something happens which requires special attention to get it working on your platform of choice. Being a creative and enligtened mac user means jack to a bunch of web developers using Linux.
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2006, 02:23:54 PM »
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Being a creative and enligtened mac user means jack to a bunch of web developers using Linux.
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Not necessarily an argument, but more of a follow up comment:
I would expect that any programmer worth his salt who has decided to use a Mac would have faced enough criticism themselves to know better than to interfere with a group of programmers who have likewise decided to use linux.
As for the point at hand, I think the opportunity to learn a new IDE shouldn't be overlooked here. I had never heard of this "Quatra Plus" before, and since I know nothing about it, who am I to judge its usefulness for web development? It might very well be the thing to convince me to install linux on one of my Macs so I can use it for my own development. (Just to get this out of the way ahead of time: I only have one PC, and it's already designated as a gaming machine, so it would by default be one of my Macs to get linux.)
My point is: There is always a possibility that there exists out there somewhere software that could make what you do for a living much faster/enjoyable/productive. I would give the IBM/linux/Quanta combo a shot, and if it's not working for you in 6 months, ask for a $500 Mac mini instead. That would be a small investment for the company, but would be more than enough horsepower for a Terminal window and text editor. And at least then you would have had time to establish a good strong list of arguments about why Quanta wasn't working for you.
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| « Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 02:26:03 PM by Porter » |
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Terraji
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2006, 03:22:49 PM »
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Strongly consider before trying PowerPC Linux, the package support is lacking and it is probably not going to get any better. I know this because I spent last week setting up a PowerMac G4 MDD with Debian as a file/print/authentication server for my reseach group. Getting a bootable SMP kernel was a maddening exercise.
Also, if your G4 has a nvidia card you need the official 'nvidia' X driver to use twinview and it isn't available for PowerPC, which means dual-head is out of the question.
Are you unable to slice of 20GB from your gaming machine for Linux? because that sounds to me like the better option.
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Ryo-Ohki
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2006, 07:13:11 AM »
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Hello Porter and Terraji. Thank you for all your input and suggestions. They were helpful. I don't start until the 19th but I went in today to discuss the issue with our senior developer and I will be getting a Mac.
To be honest I went in fully intent on going the Linux route, but he was kind of curious to see how I normally code on my Powerbook. Since he didn't see any issues he thought it made sense to go ahead and get me a Mac since that's been my development platform for the past 4 years.
So again thanks for the input. Now if getting a panda were only this easy . . .
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| « Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 07:14:24 AM by Ryo-Ohki » |
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2006, 07:34:47 PM »
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Strongly consider before trying PowerPC Linux, the package support is lacking and it is probably not going to get any better. I know this because I spent last week setting up a PowerMac G4 MDD with Debian as a file/print/authentication server for my reseach group. Getting a bootable SMP kernel was a maddening exercise.
Also, if your G4 has a nvidia card you need the official 'nvidia' X driver to use twinview and it isn't available for PowerPC, which means dual-head is out of the question.
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The machine I have in mind would be a 300MHz G3 Blue & White tower with an ATi Rage 128. Not exactly top of the line, but I'm betting X would run okay. I also wouldn't be worrying about SMP or dual-head support.
Are you unable to slice of 20GB from your gaming machine for Linux? because that sounds to me like the better option.
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I could, but it would be a smidge counter-productive to the way I'm used to working. I very frequently share tasks between my two systems (Mac and PC)-- meaning when I'm playing CS, the Mac is running iChat and Safari (and sometimes iTunes). And when I'm programming, both monitors are usually switched over to the Mac and the PC sits idle until I'm ready to test. Here's the real argument though: when you're doing web development you spend a lot of time fix bugs in Win IE5/6, which necessitates having XP active to switch my monitor input over to, and plus a PC/linux system wouldn't really get me anything I can't already have on the Mac in that type of setup.
Another consideration is that I'm darned fluent in both OS X and Windows, and not nearly so in any linux desktop environment. That means when my Mac is running Software Update and rebooting, or working on encoding a video DVD, I can quite easily move over to the Windows box and use it as a temporary workstation.
The whole point is pretty moot though, because this very post is the first I've done from my G4 in the basement for about 2 months. What with my job taking up so much of my day now, my PowerBook tends to get more use than everything else combined. 
It sure is nice to have computer conversations with intelligent people though: most of my clients at work don't know the difference between a power cord and a USB cable. 
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| « Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 07:11:04 AM by Porter » |
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Terraji
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2006, 07:08:18 PM »
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| The machine I have in mind would be a 300MHz G3 Blue & White tower with an ATi Rage 128. Not exactly top of the line, but I'm betting X would run okay. |
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For the most part, I've found that as long as you have enough memory (512 ideally, 256 is probably good), you should be good to go for the modern linux apps. Processor speed isn't a huge deal, I ran a 450Mhz K6-2 for a good while and it behaved amazingly at Linux compared to running Windows.
I don't envy you and your job. You must have heroic levels of patience. I am sure I would snap after my second or third day of dealing with the clueless masses.
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2006, 07:28:46 AM »
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Yeah, sometimes it does stress my patience, but mostly I don't find it to be that hard. If you wanted to look at it this way, you could say that I'm well compensated for doing nothing more than explaining pretty basic computer concepts, but to me it's more about doing a good job. Computer people fall into the trap of simply fixing problems and walking away far too often; without a thought about how a very small bit of applied user-education could help prevent the problem from ever recurring. In other words, "computer people" focus too much on the computer and not the people.
It's worth my time to explain to someone how a hard drive works and why, in turn, it's important to defragment it once in a while, because it 1) helps them understand why they're doing something instead of just mindlessly following my advice, and 2) as a result, makes them far more likely to actually listen to me and really defragment their computer.
That's just one example of course, but over the years I've developed good analogies for most of the issues I encounter on a daily basis, and taking the opportunity to share them with my customers makes my company a lot different (better) than the guys from Geek Squad, for example.
I'd still rather be programming full time, and to be completely honest I don't have enough free time to exercise my skills enough to keep from falling behind in the industry, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that right now. For example, I worked a 12 hour day yesterday, which left me about an hour's worth of free time when I got home before it was time to hit the sack.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Re:OSX workstation
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2006, 12:22:26 PM »
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Hi guys , long time didnt see you
For coding php/mysql you can do it even with a mac mini , also working with an IDE is not necesary, dreamweaver do his job.
I will recomend use cocaMySQL for database client becouse is faster than using phpmyadmin
hey Ryo if you need some outsourcing design/coding you can contact for a quote here is my website
http://desarrollosdigitales.net/
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