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Topic: School Paper Help (Read 174 times)
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Guardian_Tenshi
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School Paper Help
« on: April 25, 2005, 01:26:15 PM »
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I'm taking a course in basic computer theory, and we have to attempt to tie what we've learned in the course to a real world application. I wanted to look into AI, and thought CS-bots were a good example of the limits of AI.
I'm hoping to get an as serious an opinion as I can get from you guys about your thoughts on the effectiveness of Bot programming, not as it would affect our server, but how you see them as human replacements in the game. Do they "think" and/or "act" like a real human? How good are they are "practicing" a skilled player? That sort of thing.
Thanks in advance,
Tenshi
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Surgeon General
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Re:School Paper Help
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2005, 02:54:15 PM »
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I have very little experience with bots outside of the ones that came with source. They're retarded. Since this sort of thing is subjective, I'd recommend installing some bots and going to town.
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Re:School Paper Help
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2005, 03:51:25 PM »
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One you're beyond n00b level I don't think bots are much help at all.
At least that's been my experience with them.
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animal sex
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Re:School Paper Help
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2005, 04:08:11 PM »
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One you're beyond n00b level I don't think bots are much help at all.
At least that's been my experience with them.
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I see it as the complete opposite, if you set a bot at the highest possible difficulty, its like playing against an aimbot. Even though they dont look or act like a human player, the highest difficulty bot (READ: not the source bots) will kill the best cs player 9 times out of 10. Bots can be better than any human could hope to be.
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Justboy
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Re:School Paper Help
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2005, 04:30:38 PM »
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In the case of CS, its main appeal for me isn't the actual game but the fact that you're connecting to a globally accessible server to play against other real people in real time. Bots have very little appeal to me and don't even come close to the experience online.
However, a well programmed bot imitates human play pretty well with deliberate errors and reaction time delays programmed in. They do have a tendency to do ridiculous things too though - spinning all over the shop, running backwards all the time. Which detracts from the pseudo-realism of CS.
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Grounded
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Re:School Paper Help
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2005, 05:07:01 PM »
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"However, a well programmed bot imitates human play pretty well with deliberate errors and reaction time delays programmed in."
I don't think there are currently any bots that come close to that in CS. Even the bots judged to be best by the community (such as PODBot) don't really imitate human play at all. They don't really respond well to aggression (you shoot at one and it turns and runs straight at you firing wildly), they don't fall back, they don't cover one another. All the features they have intended to make them more human-like tend to be superfluous, such as swapping a poorer gun for a better one or camping for no good reason.
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Re:School Paper Help
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2005, 07:49:25 PM »
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say more things like what grounded said  that's the kind of feedback i want, do they in your opinion simulate humanlike play at all, if not, why not? this for a paper SG, so i want YOUR opinions, so i can quote you. I'm not trying to figure someone life altering thing out for myself
Tenshi
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Re:School Paper Help
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2005, 09:47:10 PM »
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In that case, no, its unrealistic to train with bots. At the present time, theres no way to make a computer mimic a human mind without error, and training against a bot wouldnt be as good as training against a fairly skilled human. The day that bots can think like humans, is that day that was depicted in Terminator 3.
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Terraji
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Re:School Paper Help
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2005, 10:48:10 PM »
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IMO, game AI programming unfailingly sucks at providing a humanlike opponent, as I am sure is a pretty standard response.
As someone who has a marginal bit of experience in machine learning (I took a couple of courses on the subject) accomplishing a task which mimics the behaviour of humans is practically impossible. Most AI experts would say that an Artificial Neural Network would be the way to make a proper, intelligently behaving system. The problem is that they take an extremely long time to train and can often produce some quite unpredictable results. This probably costs way too much for game companies to stomach. The average high-school schlub who buys all the video games probably isn't observant/smart enough to notice that the programmers took a shortcut by making the AI dumb.
I believe that most AI implementations in games use Fuzzy Controllers which is a remarkably simple way to get things to behave intelligently. They are computationally inexpensive, and can provide some pretty good results, but they still lack the ability to take in all the factors that a human player would when making a decision.
Even the best implementations are suceptable to falling into predictable patterns, since essentially they all boil down to if-then-else structures. Once we see a bot doing something stupid like running backwards, and humping a crate for a round, we dismiss it as crappy AI. I imagine that the better implementations that we know of such as the bots in UT are merely good at avoiding falling apart in tricky circumstances.
From the computer theory perspective, the only limit I see is the human programmer element. Good human-mimicing systems are well within the range of technology, we are just lacking the knowledge to know how to do it properly.
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| « Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 10:50:28 PM by Terraji » |
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