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Topic: Dust vs. Just (a map review) (Read 83 times)
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Dust vs. Just (a map review)
« on: October 13, 2005, 10:50:26 PM »
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•••For some time now I•ve wanted to release a type of •map review• about current map(s) on the server. The idea was to be as objective as possible in evaluating the play quality of the maps on the server, possibly even sparking some discussion about tactics from a strictly map point of view, and maybe one more way that someone can make themselves a better player. Specifically, I really wanted to target one (or more) of Grounded•s maps so that he could get both feedback, and the well deserved pat on the back that•s long overdue. Though I really wanted to get at Grounded•s maps, I also wanted to take a map that I dislike and try to fire some people up. Therefore, I started with de_dust and Grounded•s rebuild de_just.
•••Dust has been a foundational map for Counter-Strike for a long time now. As far as I know it was the first map to be seen on the Xbox version of CS, and the new CS:Source. For most it was one of the first maps for us to learn and has been a regularly distributed for before I can remember (maybe always?). At any rate, because of this maps high prestige in the CS community, I personally think it took a lot of guts to step up to trying to •fix• it, but leave it to CSR•s own to make a good thing great.
•••For now, let•s take a closer look at dust. The map is pretty simple when you think about it; the key dynamic/key points of the map boil down to two key areas in my opinion. The first point is the T intersections of the dark room and just outside on the Terror side. The second is as you see light from the tunnel on the CT side.
•••Sadly BOTH of these dynamic points seem to be CT friendly to me, and THAT is what most people don•t like about the map. The darkroom is usually the better of the two dynamic points from a Terror point of view, it•s usually territory that Terrorists can get to before CTs can. Of course no one wants to loose an edge though, and most CT•s rush for that spot. It•s not impossible for Terrors to hold that ground, but it•s definitely difficult. Most younger or fearful terrors fall back to about where this first picture is taken and try and take shots at CTs. This to me is either a sign of a cocky player who is a good shot or a young player who doesn•t know any better, as tactically this is a bad position for Terrors. Exposed with no where to run but a corner. It reminds me of the games with ducks moving across the tracks with targets on them that CTs are trying to hit for a stuffed animal prize.
•••So what about the tunnel? It•s a death trap for terrorists. Even a good sniper is lucky if he can push that position. Why? Check this picture. And even if a lucky auto or rusher can make it to the end of that tunnel, he•s now in low ground as seen by the second picture in this group.
•••What exactly is a terrorist to do? What most skilled players do•lemming rush A. Sure it•s not pretty, sure it sucks, sure you•re gonna die if you•re the firs one out. But getting the bomb to the site and trying to hold the site is a terrorists best chance. Oh yeah, and if you favor this strategy too much, CTs know what you•re doing, so now you have only one tactical bomb site. Groovy huh? I know it•s awesome. So what did Grounded do with de_just to fix these problems for terrorists?
•••Quite simply, he turned the map around. Grounded added two simple changes that really turn the map around, figuratively and literally. Mainly he opens the tunnel pass to the terrorists and allows them secure the CT spawn bomb (relabeled site A).
•••Grounded also gave the Terrors some cover in that oh so critical dark room I talked about earlier. You•ll see these small boxes here make a CT rush into the dark easier for Terrorists to hold a position, eliminate a threat and move on. Also the amount of boxes in the CT bombsite has been increased allowing a better-protected plant and hold. Though neither area is still •safe• it•s at least helpful to terrorists to stage some sort of assault from.
•••
•••This map isn•t without flaws though, as there are pieces that I still don•t care for or understand. Specifically, I don•t get the addition of the vents that Grounded mentions in his page of maps. I don•t see that this adds much to the map since no one can get up there without assistance, I find it slow for a map that normally plays quickly. I don•t understand the recessed planting zone for site B, personally I think it just makes it harder for Terrors to cover that site having to take the time to walk down the ramp. And my final complaint is that of being able to get on top of that building like structure inside the B bombsite room. This is a pretty strong sniper point that I think CTs can still get to much faster then terrorists can, and even still, I just don•t like the idea of someone camping up there on either side. The view down that hallway into the dark room is obscene! Allowing little to no chance for a counter-snipe. Further, it•s a position that allows a VERY quick jump down from said sniper spot to get into a pistol fight if the sniper misses/looses.
The disadvantages still out weigh the good changes though, and still would rather play this map any day over regular de_dust. If you like dust, this map may seem difficult for you to grasp, as actually you have to THINK very differently from the original dust, but it•s still a lot of fun, and one of the better custom maps I•ve seen out there. Props to the Big G man for tackling such a staple of the community and coming up with such a good result.
Yours Truly,
[Wumpa] Tenshi (CSR)
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| « Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 10:54:31 PM by Guardian_Tenshi » |
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animal sex
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Re:Dust vs. Just (a map review)
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2005, 11:50:52 PM »
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Hm interesting, i hope to get around to writing something similar to this (possibly how to play/strategy on a map)
but good job
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Re:Dust vs. Just (a map review)
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2005, 12:57:57 AM »
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heh, i'd be interested in like arguing tactics with people too. I'm sure there are people who play very differently, and think very different about "what's important" compared to me.
So if you have a map in mind, let me know. If I have more time, I'll try and write more.
Tenshi
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Grounded
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Re:Dust vs. Just (a map review)
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2005, 05:18:09 AM »
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Hehe, this is an unusual post to wake up to  Glad you think it improves upons dust, but there are lots of things I'd probably change in retrospect. The stairs and pipe at the underpass were specific additions, but lots of the other changes were purely to make it different.
- Vents. You can get up into them without assistance, but maybe they aren't accessible enough to add tactical value.
- Raised area in B. This was purely to try and make things more interesting, but obviously it's a bit of a camper's haven.
- Sunken bombsite in B. Not sure what I was thinking here, except variation again.
- I think, from the times we've played, the tweaks I made have maybe pushed the balance too far in favour of Ts. It's pretty hard to anticipate these things without hardcore playtesting.
- Visuals. I still think these could be vastly improved if I'd actually planned things out beforehand 
Thanks for taking the time Tenshi
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TobY1KaNobY
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Re:Dust vs. Just (a map review)
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2005, 12:24:06 PM »
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you roc grounded,you do need a pat on the back,a well deserved one m8 
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ToBy1
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Surgeon General
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Re:Dust vs. Just (a map review)
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2005, 03:12:44 PM »
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Good review. I still think dust is horrible. If the T's don't have enough balls to rush, they sit and camp the entire time right outside of the entrance to the tunnel or the ramp. Personally, after forty-five seconds everything outside of that tunnel on T spawn side should be engulfed in flames. This would give them some incentive to move or die.
Other areas where flames would be particularlly useful:
Dust2
T-Spawn: You always get some tool camping there with an AWP/Autosniper
Nuke
Roof by T-Spawn: Again you always have someone crouched in a corner waiting/camping. Those people ruin the map.
Aztec
DD & outside of bridge room (t-spawn side): More forest fires, less campers.
Those are just a few examples and I certainly could come up with some more (haven't even touched cs_maps).
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Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love!
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Grounded
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Re:Dust vs. Just (a map review)
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2005, 06:18:14 PM »
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I took over for JB on an awp-enabled server on italy for a couple of rounds today. There were no admins to sort out the stacking (which was fairly outrageous) and the CTs could not win a round no matter what we did. It stunk.
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