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Surgeon General
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Steam Update
« on: February 25, 2005, 02:27:26 PM »
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Counter-Strike: Source, Source Engine, and Half-Life 2: Deathmatch Update Available
February 24, 2005, 5:21 pm • cliffe
Counter-Strike: Source, Source Engine, and Half-Life 2: Deathmatch updates are available and will be applied automatically when Steam is restarted. The changes include:
Counter-Strike: Source
* New hostage rescue map cs_compound
* Added Source version of de_train
* Upgraded version of the CT player model
* Location names are shown in radio/team chat, and under the radar
* Server tickrate can be specified with -tickrate
* Added radio command aliases
* Added mp_humanteam cvar [any | ct | t] (forces human players onto specified team - useful for humans vs bots)
* Added new "match" mode for bot_quota -- If bot_quota_mode = "match", bot count = (human count) * bot_quota
* Bots no longer automatically follow humans (bot_auto_follow now defaults to 0)
* Bots are balanced before humans with mp_autoteambalance
* Bots can open simple +use doors
* Bots change their names to match the prefix when bot_prefix changes
* Several improvements to bot behavior when paths become blocked -- solves problems specific to cs_havana
* Bots won't throw grenades if something is blocking their throw
* Bots are better at only breaking objects that are in their way
* Fixed bug where a bot occasionally "dithered" rapidly between two or more targets without firing
bot_kick and bot_kill console commands use the bot's base name without the bot_prefix
de_piranesi - bots avoid the breakable crates better.
* A bomb exploding just as the round restarts no longer kills players at the start of the next round
* Grenades being thrown when the player dies no longer disappear
* Increased mp_limitteams bounds to 0-30, where 0 will disable this functionality
* Players' arms and hands can be hit by bullets now
* Target ID font is proportional, and it doesn't resize incorrectly after a resolution change
* Overviews don't show player locations when mp_fadetoblack is on
* Players with spaces in their names can be selected in the spectator GUI
* Observers can change their name at round restart
* Throwing a grenade right at round restart no longer results in holding a "ghost" grenade viewmodel at respawn
Yeah. Valve is terrible.
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Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love!
Source blows.
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animal sex
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2005, 02:33:11 PM »
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Yeah that bullet thing and this shouldnt go unnoticed either...
* Bots can open simple +use doors
* Bots won't throw grenades if something is blocking their throw
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2005, 02:54:58 PM »
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Just think of all the wonderful bugs still out there waiting to be discovered!
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[Wumpa] Porter
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theNewb
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2005, 10:58:36 AM »
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I think the main thing they need to be focusing on is the hitbox lag. THat's getting really annoying. You see the good players on CS:S right now compensate for that by shooting where the player used to be a few milliseconds ago. I thiink it's almost cheap, as when a new player comes in, they're going to do what comes to mind; shoot the body. Of course, that doesn't work.
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Surgeon General
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2005, 12:02:41 PM »
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You'd think they'd make bullet recognition a top priority? Or maybe a version of VAC for Source? Nope on both counts. Nobody wants crappy versions of train and tides. They should get their collective heads out of their asses and make the game playable to people that have played 1.6.
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Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love!
Source blows.
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Terraji
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2005, 12:40:52 PM »
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On the other hand, they did give the game away for free......
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Surgeon General
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2005, 01:42:21 PM »
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On the other hand, they did give the game away for free......
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Sure, because you know they weren't using it as a selling point or anything.
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Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love!
Source blows.
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theNewb
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2005, 02:22:06 PM »
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Yeah, I played train for a bit and I just found it wasn't the same.  Train was great in 1.6; very stand-outish. But now, it's just kinda bland. What I don't like about some maps is how they've made them really dark. I miss sunny italy or instance.
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Terraji
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2005, 12:19:56 AM »
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When was the last time you bought a retail game that didnt have any bugs in it?
At least they are extending the courtesy of fixing it.
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Surgeon General
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2005, 12:25:11 AM »
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Sure they're fixing things, but they're fixing BOTS for chirsts sake. Nobody really cares about bots. If Valve spent 5 minutes looking around their own forums, they'd see the fixes people actually want are VAC for Source and the bullet recognition to actually be somewhat close. Not some stupid bot update.
Retail console games are generally bug free or the ones present aren't a major factor unlike the ones in valve.
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Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love!
Source blows.
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Terraji
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2005, 11:30:23 AM »
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It's easy to be an armchair critic isn't it?
They are fixing what is economically feasable. I'd argue the point, but I don't feel like giving a sermon on software development.
As for console games, we are talking about a whole different universe. And they still have plenty of bugs, you just haven't noticed them.
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2005, 01:11:07 PM »
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As for console games, we are talking about a whole different universe. And they still have plenty of bugs, you just haven't noticed them.
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I would have to agree with SG on this one...bugs that i dont notice dont bother me, simple as that. If source had bugs that i didnt notice, i couldn't care less about them.
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Terraji
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2005, 01:29:18 PM »
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I would like to put forward that the only reason you are noticing them is because you are comparing it to CS 1.6 which is very much at the mature stage in terms of bug-fixing. Tell me how many bugs you noticed playing through HL2? and then compare that to a console game.
I dont think that the conclusion "valve employs nothing by complete morons" is going to stand up in any sort of intellectual debate. Yes, they did use the CS community as beta testers for steam, but why begrudge them for it? You still bought HL2 and I am pretty sure you enjoyed it.
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2005, 02:39:44 PM »
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| They are fixing what is economically feasable. I'd argue the point, but I don't feel like giving a sermon on software development. |
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Terrji, you of all people should be able to see they obviously aren't using good process. The lack of a (properly) prioritized task list is pretty apparent, even from the outside. They patently ignore customer feedback, and there's obviously no code review or testing process (or at least not one that's working well enough), because each new update creates as many bugs as it fixes. What's more, the fact that the HL2 schedule slipped by more than 200% is also a clear indicator that they 1) waaay under-scheduled the project, 2) were rushed from the beginning to release it, 3) probably under-estimated the effort involved, 4) weren't given the resources for freedom they needed to produce a quality product. The result of all of this is a bad product made with bad code. And any good software engineer knows it's harder to maintain bad code than code that was designed well and implemented well from the beginning. We would be in a much different place right now if Valve had taken the time to do it right from the beginning.
In fact, if Valve wasn't using the fact that they had an insanely popular game as a crutch, they would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. I can only imagine what their maintenance process looks like:
1) Get some guys together who know nothing about the code base.
2) Tell them to find something wrong with the game (not hard!)
3) Have them fix something else that isn't important.
4) Repeat.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Terraji
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2005, 03:29:10 PM »
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You of all people, should know that nobody uses good process. That is the biggest rub. Everybody's schedule slips, everybody goes over budget, and all code is difficult to maintain. The point is that nobody, not even myself, has a clue to what a proper software development process is.
What I do know, is that good code does not always go hand-in-hand with good business. If you are writing software that controls the breaks in a car, you better make damn sure your code works all the time, or the lawsuits are going to come rolling in, but that is the exception.
In the game development industry, shipping your game in the shortest amount of time is alot more important than getting small bugs ironed out. You should also appreciate the difficulty involved in writing piece of software that operates in real-time over the internet the at the level that Counter-Strike does. The amount of code required as padding to make the game robust is absurd. If we waited until all these bugs were sorted out first, the game would still be in development now and probably for several more months. Is that a better alternative for you? what about for Valve?
I'm not going to blame them for putting food on their table.
The other problem is that alot of these bugs are not found until the game is released. It's a fact, Their resources for testing are limited, but if you ever work in a company with unlimited resources, let me know, because I would like to work there too.
I applaud Valve for doing a pretty damn good job at pulling of an incredible game, and a pretty good job at making money. I had a good time playing HL2, and I would be having a good time playing CS:Source if CSR wasn't around. Yes it has bugs. I am sure your school taught you that bug-free code is about as impossible as you can get. You can't alway expect perfect, because you will always be dissapointed.
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2005, 04:04:47 PM »
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| I am sure your school taught you that bug-free code is about as impossible as you can get. You can't alway expect perfect, because you will always be dissapointed. |
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Ah, but my school taught me to expect bugs, whereas the developers at Valve apparently did not. I'm not faulting them for doing the best job they could under the circumstances, I'm faulting them for not doing an acceptably good job, period. I would rather Valve have taken the time they needed to produce a workable, stable product than shove this stuff they call a game on us.
You also have to realize that I'm speaking from a server admin perspective, and not as much an end-user customer. Valve makes a very large number of us admins put up with an incredible amount of shit because they didn't do a good job to begin with. We run their server software for free, usually at some cost to ourselves, but it's US that keep Valve's revenue stream coming in. Take away CSR and every other CS(:S) server out there, for example, and you don't have much reason to buy Counter-Strike or CS:S, do you? (That doesn't apply for HL2 of course.) To a very large degree, it's the server operators that keep Valve in business, and Valve is NOT very good about listening to them, even if they ARE doing their best.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Terraji
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2005, 04:12:32 PM »
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I would like to point again out that I never bought CS or CS:S, and it is not their primary revenue stream.
CS started as a unofficial mod that they eventually took under their wing, you cannot blame them for 'not doing it right in the first place.'
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2005, 04:22:55 PM »
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CS started as a unofficial mod that they eventually took under their wing, you cannot blame them for 'not doing it right in the first place.'
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Most of the problems aren't specific to CS though, they are specific to the HL or Source engine, which means it *is* Valve's baby that's screwed up. You can hardly fault Counter-Strike for having the problems it does when it's the game they used to make the mod from that's doing the majority of the work. Back in the day, TFC and DoD people were complaining about the HL netcode just as much as the CS people. Just because Valve controls CS now doesn't change the fact that it's still the base game causing a lot of issues. In that sense, I certainly *can* blame them for not doing it right to begin with. 
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Terraji
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2005, 12:02:18 AM »
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The situation as I see it:
I think we can say now, that with over a year of maintainance, and updates by Valve, CS 1.6 has evolved into a reletively bug free, snappy game. There are still bugs in it, but it is pretty clear that they are in the point of the maintenance lifecycle where fixing bugs, only induces more bugs. That is a 'mature' product. Another comparable example is Starcraft (I think they are on patch 1.12) where the same thing has happened. This is a well defined lifecycle that has been around since the 60's. No surprises here. We play CS because it is a great game. Good job Valve. We all decice that we are now going to out to buy there next game, because we are loyal to the brand.
Now, Valve was busting their ass for 2 years to get HL2 shipped, so they took a month or two off in Mexico, and get back and decide to start maintaining their product. Theres a whole pile of bugs, since the development was rushed (it happens Porter, everybody cuts corners to meet deadlines), but they know that it is good business to fix them, but the community is outraged by the fact that new product in the infant stage of maintainance is, dare I say, BUGGIER than the piece of code that was patched and updated for several years after extreme stress testing. Who is the group of idiots here? Valve, or the armchair critics in the community?
When Half-Life 1 was made, Valve was a fly-by-night outfit. Small budget, with extreme pressure to ship their game out, which wasn't even intended on having a multiplayer component. While you can be upset for all the inconvinence that this shoddy netcode caused you, it has little bearing on the ability for Valve to produce good code 6 years later with an astronomical-by-comparison budget.
People: CS:Source was just realased. I have played it, It is fun. The bugs are minor. Give it time.
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2005, 01:10:38 AM »
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If you haven't already as part of your degree, I suggest you read The Deadline by Tom DeMarco, and invest in Rapid Development by Steve McConnell. Just because a pattern has been present since the 60's doesn't make it preferable, or even viable, and if the computer industry has taught us anything, it's that evolution is critical to success.
And while we're on the subject of Quality, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance would be a good read too.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2005, 01:46:19 AM »
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Let me just point out that VALVe had no control of half life or counter strike 1.5 or earlier, that was sierra. Since VALVe has come in, they have released 1.6...which is deemed by many to be the worst 'update' ever. They shutdown ALL WON servers, so that they could make more of a profit and force everyone onto 1.6, regardless of if they liked 1.5 better or not. They also released the steam client which we all know and love  . Dont get me wrong, VALVe has done a few good things, but they are few and very far between.
Half life 2 was fun, for the most part, and i give VALVe great credit for that but cs:s was not coded by the same people who coded half life 2 on the havoc engine. The only part of cs:s that really impresses me is the amazing eye candy it can churn out at high speeds, but, call me cliche, all the glitters isnt gold.
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2005, 02:08:31 AM »
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Sierra was just the publisher, Valve has always been responsible for Half-Life itself. Kind of like how The Sims was made by Maxis, but distributed by Electronic Arts.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Terraji
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2005, 09:03:07 AM »
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Just because a pattern has been present since the 60's doesn't make it preferable, or even viable, and if the computer industry has taught us anything, it's that evolution is critical to success.
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Its not a pattern, its a model of the occurance of faults and maintainability of code. Its more in the 'natural law' domain.
An omission from your list is The Mythical Man Month. There is no silver bullet.
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2005, 09:11:08 AM »
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| Its not a pattern, its a model of the occurance of faults and maintainability of code. Its more in the 'natural law' domain. |
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As long as you believe that, there no reason to try to improve it, is there? To me, that sounds like an excuse.
It's sitting on my shelf actually. There might not be one end-all solution to every problem, but there are improvements that can be made in every area. Saying "there is no silver bullet," and then giving up on ANY process improvement again sounds like an excuse.
For me, that's just not good enough. If you've read The Deadline and ZatAoMM, you'd understand (maybe not agree with, but at least understand) the concept of each person doing quality work regardless of the what the people around them are doing. Quality inspires and breeds more quality. Not trying is the perfect way to keep the entire system in the proverbial Dark Ages.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2005, 09:11:41 AM »
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*shudder*
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Terraji
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2005, 09:23:10 AM »
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For me, that's just not good enough. If you've read The Deadline and ZatAoMM, you'd understand (maybe not agree with, but at least understand) the concept of each person doing quality work regardless of the what the people around them are doing. Quality inspires and breeds more quality. Not trying is the perfect way to keep the entire system in the proverbial Dark Ages.
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Quality work == slow work == fired from Electronic Arts.
Quality work == Software Engineering == The guy you want writing software for your brakes.
Thats my point.
Game development is outside the scope of software engineering. It's part of the entertainment industry, and if you can't produce a flashy game, then you are yesterday's news. Don't expect a tank, because you are buying a F1 car.
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| « Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 09:25:12 AM by Terraji » |
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2005, 10:59:18 AM »
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| Game development is outside the scope of software engineering. It's part of the entertainment industry, and if you can't produce a flashy game, then you are yesterday's news. Don't expect a tank, because you are buying a F1 car. |
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That's a valid point, and I agree with you (though I still think everything Steam-related sucks). I think we both have rested our cases. Good discussion! GGz. 
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Re:Steam Update
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2005, 11:04:56 AM »
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Steam is a little shakey, but we know it has improved by alot. The only thing that hasn't improved is friends, which I prefer that way (and maybe valve does) because it just invites ghosting.
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