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Topic: Well (Read 752 times)
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biggums
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Well
« on: January 15, 2004, 12:02:53 AM »
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I am really getting sick of the ammount of hackers that have been in csr. It's not just that, but the fact that hackers are found and then spectated for 20 min and then the admins say no his mouse twitches in circles around his head before he shoots on every guy. I don't get why the admins don't understand what hacks look like. I won't name names but i think the admins need to all look into how some hacks work because there have been hackers playing in the server that are almost regulars now.
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Re:Well
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2004, 01:41:10 AM »
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ya know...we really can't win with you...either we ban too fast or too slow...I think you'd be pretty pissed off if you were mistakenly banned. It also doesn't help when you say 40 times to the person that you think he's hacking so that everytime we watch him, nothing happens.
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| « Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 01:47:00 AM by Guardian_Tenshi » |
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Nittany
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Re:Well
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2004, 04:34:03 AM »
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I was standing over biggums shoulder when this was happening. Refer to the rate kaoz thread for my input.
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Kaoz
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Re:Well
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2004, 07:00:51 AM »
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intelligent use of the friends network can save alot of trouble, PM an admin with that who is in game, and have them watch the hacker, so the hacker isn't made aware
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Re:Well
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2004, 08:25:11 AM »
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intelligent use of the friends network can save alot of trouble, PM an admin with that who is in game, and have them watch the hacker, so the hacker isn't made aware
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You're giving a lot of people too much credit Kaoz-- I don't think a lot of people know how to use the Friends feature, much less even know what it is. I agree that it is highly underutilized though, which is a shame.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Re:Well
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2004, 08:28:35 AM »
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I also know that I got an IM from biggums last night, and if I hadn't already been asleep for an hour and a half, I would have been there in the time it would have taken me to launch CS.
I'm sorry we're not meeting everyone's expectations, but either we've got lots of people coming to the forums complaining that the server is full of hackers, or we've got lots of people coming to the forums complaining that they were banned wrongfully.
I welcome anybody who thinks they can do a better job of balancing these two problems to suggest a solution.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Fotty
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Re:Well
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2004, 08:58:42 AM »
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Are there any new anti cheating applications that can be put on the server?
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Re:Well
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2004, 09:02:13 AM »
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Every new Steam Update forces ALL anti-cheat developers to re-compile and re-release their software. Steam has made everything except VAC inviable. If you can find something that shows promise though, I'll listen.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Deuce
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Re:Well
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2004, 10:33:16 AM »
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i too recieved an IM from biggums last night. while i was already asleep for an hour or so like porter..i took care of the problem.
sometimes its not that the admins dont see the hacks..its that they are waiting for them to do it again. although you werent in game when i did the actual banning last night jake..the person in question played 5 rounds in a row purposely dieing each time so he could say he wasnt hacking.
i'll also point out that there was already another admin actively playing on steam (dod at the time). continuing on kaoz's suggestion, how about an available list on the site with all of the admin's steam id names.
I know certain people when they spot hax like to spam it until the person is banned. I tell the kid to stop it because it does no good to his face. However, when it is on the 6th round of getting walled in the head while the hackers crosshairs do the tell tale circle twitches and they haven't been banned what would one expect? Especially when someone says to an admin hey the crosshairs are twitching around and the admin responds to that person "you do the same thing so how do I know if it is hacks?" I mean four blatent hackers went though atleast 10 rounds and I believe only one actually got banned. What is that?
In essence, sometimes things need to be pointed out even though I don't. I just leave out of respect for the policy. I assure you this type of thing wouldn't happen with kaoz in game.
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i think its a lack of other admins playing thats an issue..which was one reason why i started the whole "get kaoz admin" issue... and while i understand what you mean about some admins not taking care of hackers quick enough, i think you are underestimating the current admins, and maybe giving too much credit to kaoz.. one person isnt going to fix things overnight.
was this 4 blatant hacker thing last night too? i was only told of one hacker on the server when biggums IM'd me.
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Father Ribs
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Re:Well
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2004, 12:55:06 PM »
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Like I said in the other thread, anything that will help admins learn what hacks look like and are capable of, posting links for us to look at will help us all.
Far as using the friends network, if you leave that on during playing cs, what happens...you get beeped while playing? How disruptive is it? (I use hearing nearly as much as seeing when I play). I'll try to remember to keep my friends thing on when I'm around.
We have a lot of people on the server who are pretty darn good. To just ban someone without looking at them a while by ourselves just seems...wrong. If Big or Kaoz had popped into the server out of the blue and we went on the "ban after 3 rounds of play" standard, the competition here would suck and I'd be the #1 player (or Deuce would, but that may be giving him too much credit).
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biggums
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Re:Well
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2004, 03:59:21 PM »
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i have lots of admin on my friends list, but i don't know they are on when they don't accept that thing that says allow this person to see when u are on and off. Pluse when somones crosshair spins in circles then lands on their head and stays there and they take 1 shot and it's a headshot for 15 rounds. Thats hacking
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zeus
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Re:Well
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2004, 04:23:01 PM »
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I think demos r very useful if every admin used it when playing they could just spectate and if the person uses the hacks he will have proof
I sent deuce 3 r 4 demos of people hacking on the server and he banned them all 
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Hostage Humper
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Re:Well
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2004, 04:24:46 PM »
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better idea, admins that play on the server.
or that actually play that would be an even better idea.
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| « Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 04:25:26 PM by Hostage Humper » |
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Re:Well
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2004, 05:00:17 PM »
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In the past 48 hours, I have seen myself, PK, Tenshi, X-Factor, Ribs, Kaoz, Justboy, and Neo in-game.
Just for those of you keeping count-- we have about 14 active Admins (meaning their AdminMod access is set up), and I just named 8 of them.
Wow, you're right HH-- that's awful. 
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Deuce
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Re:Well
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2004, 05:01:05 PM »
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even better..lets get admins that ban people for using the word "suck" !!!
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Re:Well
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2004, 05:06:46 PM »
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Deuce, you've been in-game in the past two days right?
Oh, and I forgot to emphasize the fact that these are only the admins that *I* saw. That tells you two things-- the first is that there might have been more admins when I wasn't watching. The second is that I was watching the server enough in the past 48 hours to have personally spotted 8 admins!
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Deuce
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Re:Well
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2004, 05:10:06 PM »
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ja wohl herr porter
on a personal note..i have been more busy entertaining japanese guests for the past month..they left a couple days ago so i should playing at my usual ammount again
for not knowing any japanese, i extened my vocabulary quite alot. i now know such words as chin chin, uso, kuso, and cho debu. all of which will server me no purpose in the future.
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Re:Well
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2004, 06:56:45 PM »
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watch the demos of like zool just own people and stuff on the cal servers, and then tell me it is easy to spot hackers. It's not always black and white. Someone can make one move that looks mega hacker like, and then the next 20 kills look clean, then one that looks fishy again...does that mean you ban or what? And speaking of zool, does someone like who owns everyone imply that he should be banned because he's just as frustrating to play against as most hackers if you ask me. You can watch him til your hearts content, and still could be very split on whether you think he's a hacker or not. Some of his moves are very impressive, I'll tell you straight-up the first time I saw him I thought he was a hack, but the more you watch him, you see things that make you change your mind, he has very good positioning, very good nade use, and goes through a very routine set of checks.
The point is, when you're not sure, it's nice to get another person's opinion instead of just banning the punk there on the spot.
And oh yeah, deuce implies 9 of 14 active admins in game in the last 48 hours. Also as I'm typing this, 2 of 4 players in game are admins...
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| « Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 06:58:40 PM by Guardian_Tenshi » |
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Kaoz
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Re:Well
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2004, 08:47:48 PM »
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Maybe it's my competitive experience playing with any level of player you can imagine (tooot toooot srry), but separating a hacker from legit is pretty simple for me, Zool definitely is legit, i do not want to DL any cheats to try and make a demo though so i do not know how i could teach people
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zeus
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Re:Well
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2004, 08:58:06 PM »
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zool is that a player r hack? sorry i dont know ... where can i get the demo if its a player?
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Re:Well
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2004, 02:17:20 AM »
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Zool is a player, and i'm not trying to say i think he hacks, i'm saying the first time i saw him, i think thought hack. But the more you watch him, he's just got a very a good intuition and game knowledge. Anyway, yeah...
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zeus
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Re:Well
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2004, 12:42:45 PM »
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i want a demo can any one help .. i cant find a demo of zool playing
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Kaoz
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Re:Well
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2004, 12:59:03 PM »
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http://www.gotfrag.com/?node=demo&id=5656&x=D3DA1C9D you need to register for gotfrag to DL it
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| « Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 12:59:50 PM by Kaoz » |
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Hostage Humper
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Re:Well
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2004, 04:48:23 PM »
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gee porter if that is the case then why was this thread even started.
apparently you still dont have the coverage needed.
... and dont patronize me.
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| « Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 04:55:22 PM by Hostage Humper » |
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Re:Well
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2004, 05:37:39 PM »
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I had to post my reply in the admin forum-- I'd probably get myself banned from the forums for saying something so sarcastic in public and to one of our treasured members.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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biggums
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Re:Well
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2004, 11:19:57 PM »
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ok well there are usually admins in the server, but a lot of time there aren't. No one can really make more people play more, but we could help you guys try to figure out how understand how some hacks work and better detection. I tell the admin that i know he is hacking. but the other day there was a hacker in aztec, and i alerted an admin and he spectated him, and he remained thoughout aztec and on to dust2.
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Deuce
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Re:Well
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2004, 11:21:38 PM »
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i'll patronize then..i saw an open invitation to do so..plus i'm bored.
| gee porter if that is the case then why was this thread even started. |
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this thread was started right after an incident in game with a hacker. i know of this because i took care of the incident. Now maybe its just me, but usually 12:30-1:00 AM is generally sleep time. continuing on that logic, and from my own experience, its hard to admin when you are sleeping.
| apparently you still dont have the coverage needed. |
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coming from all the stories i;ve heard and from my own personal experiences.. i dont think its fair for you to criticize other admins (refer to previous post)
better idea, admins that play on the server.
or that actually play that would be an even better idea. |
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coming from a person who has barely played the past month
ok. done.
cho debu
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Nittany
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Re:Well
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2004, 08:59:49 AM »
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To tell you guys the truth. I didn't say that coverage was a problem. I didn't say that is it always easy to spot hackers. If giving Kaoz too much credit by knowing that if he saw someone using hacks he could spot them then I'm guilty.
Zool certainly is a good player and tenshi used him as a great example. I was banned from csr for hacking a few months ago, it happens. It was cleared up within a few days and would have been faster had I not agreed to be a sort of test subject.
The fact that remains I was speaking to a specific situation. The hacks were blatent. I certainly wouldn't call someone a hacker unless I was completely confident. I usually never even call someone a hacker even if they are. Unless they just coming in playing music though ingame voice and speed hacking with a knife. Then i'll be like gg hacker i'm taking demo and you will be banned by the end of the day. Calling someone out doesn't do anything. I didn't feel the need to do it as there were admins in the server at the time.
I'm sorry if you feel this is harsh critisism. It isn't intended to be. The admin team surely does a great job and almost everytime I play during reasonable hours there is an admin. With all the releases in hacks it is near impossible to play on a different server for more then one map and not run into a hacker. There is no abuse of power that i've seen and it should be noted that I appreciate that you guys are always willing to listen to people.
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Re:Well
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2004, 02:56:42 PM »
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Not that it's an excuse, but the timeframe of the last VAC update is currently being measured in months.
In other words, we're doing our best, but we're not getting a lot of help from Valve. According to the hlds_linux mailing list, and new large VAC release is due out "shortly"... whatever that means. I hope that will help a good deal with the hackers. 
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[Wumpa] Porter
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biggums
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Re:Well
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2004, 12:21:21 AM »
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deuce it's not just caus of the other night on aztec. But lately it seems that a lot of hackers have been on the server and banned, or been on the server and spectated and stayed on the server where there are the most obvious hacks people are using. And i'm tired of playing with hackers that are allowed to play.
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Deuce
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Re:Well
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2004, 11:24:33 AM »
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the reason why there has been a lot of hackers on the server is exactly what porter has already said: with valve's constant updates of steams, it is almost impossible to keep updating the server to make it hack proof
and on the subject of admins waiting a while in spectating to see if they are hacking is exactly that. they are waiting to see it with their own eyes. if we banned everyone right away according to what other people say, we would have lots of regulars missing (for example when you wanted someone to ban kaoz while he was under a different name).
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Hostage Humper
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Re:Well
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2004, 11:34:39 AM »
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treasure this....
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Kaoz
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Re:Well
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2004, 04:33:31 PM »
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I Treasure You
I treasure every word you say... And every line you write...
And after you have filled my day... I think of you at night...
I follow every step you take... Wherever you may go... I live
for your beloved sake... Because I love you so... You are the
everslasting dawn... That makes my life worthwhile... And I
could never carry on... Without your loving smile... In every
dream I kiss your hand... And gaze into your eyes... And ask
your heart to understand... And try to sympathize... I treasure
you beyond the sun... And all the stars above... Because you
are the only one... With whom I am in love.
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Re:Well
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2004, 12:10:37 AM »
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Awww, HH; you should take it as a compliment. You got me riled enough to write something I couldn't post! Of course, the Admin Team seems to be getting a real kick out of it, so maybe it wasn't that bad after all.
In any case, I'm sensing a lot of hostility-- and that's not good for you. Seriously, it's not worth fighting about. Try to be patient at least until the next VAC update comes out. I really do expect that to help improve the situation considerably.
And as I keep saying, we are still open to creative suggestions to improve our "user satisfaction rate." Just keep in mind that in order to be helpful, a suggestion also needs to be practical. This broken record, "we need admins who actually play," spiel isn't winning you any clout.
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Nittany
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Re:Well
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2004, 01:57:38 PM »
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It is quite annoying that valve hasn't done anything for vac. It doesn't seem to be logical to put all your eggs in one big update either. A much better solution would be too update more frequently imo.
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Re:Well
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2004, 02:07:44 PM »
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You're very right Nit, but even if you go off of nothing more than the noise in the server admin mailing lists, Valve has a LOT of much bigger problems.
The Steam-based linux hlds binaries are performing EXTREMELY poorly (anyone who's been on iCabbit recently will surely understand this), every Steam update breaks Cheating Death, not to mention the fact that every Steam update brings the entire Steam infrastructure to it's knees-- even after they've had six months to work the kinks out!... needless to say, there's a lot on their plates right now.
Frequent and unexpected VAC updates would definitely be best, but as it is, they notify the mailing lists (which anyone can subscribe to) of their updates ahead of time, which means the authors of all the hacks out there can update and re-publish their code with in an hour of the VAC update with all new versions that go undetected.
It's a bad deal, and there is so much anti-Valve sentiment growing that HL2 is going to have to be one HELL of a game for people to forgive all the crap we have to put up with. On top of that, they are ONLY using Direct3D in HL2, which means any chance of an OpenGL linux or Mac port ever coming out is absolutely NILL. Very depressing. They are making more bad choices right now than you can shake a P90 at.
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TheeKiller
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Re:Well
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2004, 02:28:21 PM »
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Speaking of hackers, I was playing on csr the other night, and this guy had a speed hack. Though he was pretty bad at it.
I know that surgeon seen it and he was going to make a demo. If you read the surgeon I was wondering if you got it to work.
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| If you still quetion this get me and as many of your friends in one room or a hall way and I'll use a rubber knife and see how many of you I can smack with it! |
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eni lmao
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Surgeon General
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Re:Well
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2004, 02:30:42 PM »
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Yes, I got it to work. I've done everything I can do at this point.
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Hostage Humper
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Re:Well
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2004, 05:01:55 PM »
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well if stating the obvious wont help then i cant help you.
and the hostility is only directed one way. 
if you cant say anything to my face then i suggest you keep your mouth shut.
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| « Last Edit: January 19, 2004, 05:03:31 PM by Hostage Humper » |
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Deuce
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Re:Well
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2004, 05:34:11 PM »
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| and the hostility is only directed one way. |
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sarcasm is a form of hostility.
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Re:Well
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2004, 06:49:43 PM »
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| and the hostility is only directed one way. |
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Doesn't make it any less bad for you. Sometimes I guess stubbornness wins out over common sense. Isn't that ironic.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Porter
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Re:Well
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2004, 06:53:54 PM »
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And of course I wouldn't really have any problem saying anything to you directly, but I have to consider everyone else who reads these boards (which is more than some people around here seem to be able to handle), and showing them some respect was a wiser choice than taking an easy jab at you.
Plus, I'm not the sole decision maker around here, and my reply contained a very well received suggestion (by the Admin Team at least!) that I don't have the authority to make happen on my own should it have been accepted. I therefore can't go posting it out here, can I?
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Kaoz
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Re:Well
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2004, 09:37:44 PM »
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Paul, you know i would sing my love of you to your face, my treasure 
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Father Ribs
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Re:Well
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2004, 01:13:23 AM »
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Okay, everyone settle down and back to their corners.
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SR: R. I. P. 2001
CSR: R. I. P. 1/22/2003
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Phoenix Knight
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Re:Well
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2004, 10:34:45 AM »
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Ooo, ooo! Can I ring the bell for the next round?!
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Take care and happy fragging!
Your friendly neighborhood Wumpa~
[Wumpa] Phoenix Knight (aka - Raven Knight)
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Kaoz
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Re:Well
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2004, 02:53:58 PM »
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only if I get to put on the bikini and hold the round card
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Re:Well
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2004, 04:21:29 PM »
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only if I get to put on the bikini and hold the round card
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Awwww GEEEEZZZZ! 
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[Wumpa] Porter
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Re:Well
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2004, 04:23:23 PM »
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being realistic, i'm not sure that I understand this thread anymore...other then mud slinging, I'm not sure I understand what people want to come out of this?? I understand the original complaint is that admins have problems identifying someone who is "obviously" hacking.
I've heard of some players trying to contribute by either getting demos of "obvious" hacks, or something to that effect, to that extent, I fully and openly support watching good examples, but realize that on the same example, you need to show cal players (or other quality league players) who are just on fire and on a roll.
So other than that, what are we trying to accomplish? The point is to make the server a better environment for our players. (At least, I hope Biggums' intent was not to slander admins as much as get hackers out of the server.)
My question then becomes: What else can be done realistically to furhter the improvement of the server on this issue?
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Re:Well
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2004, 04:27:17 PM »
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I'd like to point out that this is an issue that we need to keep our attention on, and explore options to better / further our understanding of hacks, how they work, and how to spot them in game.
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Hostage Humper
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Re:Well
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2004, 04:46:16 PM »
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then if you cant post it here keep your mouth shut about it i am so sick of your "better than" attitude. as i said before if your going to talk behind my back... dont!
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If you cant evolve the you will die!
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Nittany
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Re:Well
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2004, 04:47:48 PM »
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I got a video made from a pov demo of a hacker. The video was made with hax running to show how the hacker was hacking. The video editing isn't a piece of eye candy, but it would help I think. I think it would be useful just to give a an idea of what a hacker looks like that is skilled. It is just wall hax.
The player is in a cal-im clan atm. So it should help to show how to pick up little things that hackers will do even if they have decent individual skills anyways.
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Re:Well
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2004, 05:34:00 PM »
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Well done nittany. Thanks for trying to stay positive and what not. Is this movie on a digital media? I'm sure porter would help us get in on the website somewhere if it was. If it isn't, is there away we can "tape" it into a digital media?
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Nittany
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Re:Well
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2004, 07:01:27 AM »
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It is digital media.
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Re:Well
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2004, 12:19:59 AM »
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New VAC update is out as of 3PM or so today. I've restarted the server, so this update should already be active on CSR. The list of updates includes:
* A few bug fixes, including the timeout bug at login.
* Minor performance enhancements.
* New Detections.
The long delay for this update has been chalked up to the following, which is a quote from Nick Shaffner of Valve Software:
Sorry this one took so long, there was a lot of internal restructuring that had to happen in this release that required more testing than usual.
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[Wumpa] Porter
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biggums
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Re:Well
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2004, 02:12:22 AM »
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honestly hack detections don't work well, some do work well with older hacks, but new hacks come out every day and they even have programs and tutorials on how to write your own hacks so ya, i think it's best if admins just understand that when the crosshairs circle their head and then get a 1shot hs 20 times in a row, it's not just how they like to aim and not hacks.
not that this ever happened in csr on aztec 1 day........
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Guardian_Tenshi
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Re:Well
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2004, 03:46:49 PM »
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and players need to realize that spamming "TENSHI HE IS A HACKER BANZ HIM NOW!!" isn't a good way of bringing it to an admins attention that a player is hacking.
Tenshi
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biggums
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Re:Well
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2004, 12:51:46 PM »
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after i said he was hacking, then you spectate him for 20 min, and then say "no his crosshairs circle around a lot like that every time when he shoots someone, it's just how he aim's it's not hacks" what else should i do?
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Father Ribs
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Re:Well
« Reply #57 on: February 29, 2004, 03:22:17 PM »
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Not say anything. If an admin is speccing, let them do their job, no matter how imperfectly. We're not in the habit of banning people just because they are good, so we like to use the "without a reasonable doubt" standard.
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biggums
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Re:Well
« Reply #58 on: February 29, 2004, 07:00:39 PM »
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i understand, i've been banned from many servers, and from csreview 2 times, it's annoying, but again i think that the understanding and notification of hacks could be improved by the admins.
even i have made mistakes on people before, but there are some hacks that are very easy to spot
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Phoenix Knight
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Re:Well
« Reply #59 on: February 29, 2004, 10:13:58 PM »
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The amount of ease with which a hack is "detected" by observation alone varies greatly from person to person...so while it may be "easy" for you it may be a different level of difficulty for others. Something else to consider...the admins aren't going to be as quick to judge. Don't mistake the "ease" with which a hack is "detected" with thoroughness.
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Take care and happy fragging!
Your friendly neighborhood Wumpa~
[Wumpa] Phoenix Knight (aka - Raven Knight)
"See you all on the other end of my gun barrel."
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Nittany
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Re:Well
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2004, 08:36:35 AM »
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Riiiiiiiiight...
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